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Eoin Purcell

Max,

This may be both the best and worst exposition on Irish online media I have read thus far.

Best because it is at once thoughtful and considered and worst because it is also unfocused and inconclusive.

Thoughtfully you have successfully moved beyond the simple its MSN v bloggers (something too few bloggers or journalists can do), your point that the platform offers opportunity to old school reporters such as those of the Slate and rue89.com is well made and the way you delve into the economics of it goes well beyond what many in the msn have done in recent times.

On the other hand you still fall for the fallacy that "blogging" as such can be described in broad brush strokes, you seem intent on offering no way forward for smart journalists and seem oppossed to the idea that even as raw, unedited and amateur as it is blogging might produce decent writers and journalists (other than it seems 20 major).

One of the issues you have failed to consider though is that in all likelihood most Irish readers would never buy The Dubliner but they might just trip across your blog sometime online and give it a read!

Still a great piece well worth reading!
Eoin

elly parker

Quote 1: Though there are probably thousands of Irish blogs, only a handful manage to attract more than a few hundred readers a day and none manage to make any money out of it.

Quote 2: That’s called “research”; that’s what real journalists do. It’s normal practice for a responsible journalist like Mr. Waters to find at least two sources for a fact like this.

Do you actually read what you write? Or believe in any of it? If you had bothered to do any research, you would have discovered that many Irish blogs have large regular global readerships. The 'main man' of Irish blogging and organiser of the Irish Blog Awards, Damien Mulley has had over 700,000 visits since June 2005.

Again, many Irish people are making money out of blogging - while for some this might be a small supplemental income, there are several bloggers who are paying their mortgages from blogging, through a combination of adverts and affiliate programs on their blogs.

"Talking Shite" really was a good choice of title for this article!

Deborah

The thing that comes up again and again in this and many MSM vs. Blogging debates is the perception that blogs are out to replace print media. This is just simply not the case. You seem to have some sort of belief that people start blogs in the hopes that one day they will reach the heights of being published. That's very far from the truth. Personally I started my food blog as means to write down recipes. I was always making original meals and then not remembering what I did, so to have a medium to write them down was a blessing. I never expected to get such a fan base and to have people actually read, try and offer suggestions on my recipes. I am not trying to compete with or replace Food and Wine - I'm just doing my thing.

I honestly believe if you polled bloggers, very very few would say they started their blog in the hopes they'd be published or "discovered!" I also doubt that any of them would feel they were out to replace traditional journalists. Blogging is simply a social media. It's the same as going down to the pub and having a few drinks and discussing Bertie's latest shenanigans with friends, only cheaper!

Ger

Just four points from a professional "MSM" journalist:

1. Like most bloggers, you need an editor. Your rant is way too long, repetitive and tedious at times. But it is many times better than some of the articles published in print-media.

2. I agree with most of it. I have on many occasions refused to rewrite PR rubbish, quote press releases without checking them or accept statements from people who do not make themselves available for a chat. I now freelance from home and choose only to work with editors I respect.

3. I believe the reason lots of people are switching to the web for their news has a lot to do with the way it allows them to choose what they want to read.

Mainstream papers fall between too many stools. Lots of people would rather skip the sports pages, the women's section (which I find is often full of boring PR puffs, slimming / beauty advice and, paradoxically, attacks on slim / pretty celebs) and the news pages which tend to be aimed at men who would otherwise read top-shelf mags.

4. Mainstream journalism could reclaim its readers if it published newspapers full of good, hard news - all well-researched. The hacks who waste days rewriting agency and PR copy could be better employed actually going out and getting stories.

Meanwhile, for those who like reading about sport, celebs (real or "reality"), etc, there should be separate publications.

Good luck with your blog.

Ger

Ronan

How long is this piece? I mean, I think it is the longest article I have ever seen in my entire life.

Plus when you quote people, why are they not actually quoted?

I read the whole thing but the article is far too long to engage with fully, too many conflicting points.

However one area in which I think you missed the point is this suggestion that some bloggers are "successful" and others aren't.

Practically the greatest strength of blogging is that it exists independent of commercial pressures and so it can serve people with minority interests.

The net gathers similar people together at these nodal websites and suddenly you have a place where 300 people from all over the world who like whatever less popular thing are meeting daily and discussing stuff.

It's sad and stupid to look at the blogosphere and criticise it because not every blog is going to have mass popularity, this is the entire point, it facilitates discussion about subjects that aren't discussed.

Also the amount of lazy assumptions in the piece are absurd.

Plus how do you know people haven't made money from their blogs? What about people being given professional work from new media as a result of their blogs? Tons of bloggers have made money like this and I bet you haven't read half of their sites.

For anyone who wants a decent article about the relationship between mainstream media and blogs, I recommend this http://journalism.nyu.edu/pubzone/weblogs/pressthink/2005/01/21/berk_essy.html

It's from January 2005. If it proves anything it's that yes, Ireland is behind the US as regards blogging, but mostly when it comes to people sketching BLOGGING VS JOURNALISM in the same tired old binary over and over.

Ronan

"Is it the first comprehensive exposé of quite how lazy and inept the Irish media really is when it comes to the interweb? We think so. "

the ironing is delicious

Dan Sullivan

A couple of points

John Waters when challenged later on Newstalk for even one source for the figure of 60% of the internet consisting of pornography couldn't come up with even one simply saying it was common knowledge. That is a sign of someone doing no basic research at all.

I think the more interesting contrast as gone into here is the individual blogger compared to the individual journalist. Looking at the whole of the blogosphere versus the MSM (actually it is DTP Dead Tree Press when it is being derided) is a comparison that too many commentators seek to make. If a person was to gather every publication (and I do mean every fanzine, local newsrag) in print in the English language into a room and then browse through them, they might very quickly give up on the medium completely.

Fact is the IT which I still buy, has a considerable amount of syndicated material from the AP, Reuters and the Guardian. In fact the majority of the "News" is often from outside the IT house.


Elly - I would note that Max covers himself quite competently by saying only a few bloggers have more than a few hundred readers per day so Mulley can have as you say 700,000 visits since June 2005 (which is well over 700 day ago) and that would be still be somewhat less than 1,000 per day. I would actually reckon his traffic might be higher than that but still the point Max makes is correct. Interestingly rehasing my point above about syndication a significant portion (perhaps half) of Mulley's content merely links to other content. So it is more Mulley as aggregator or newsagent that draws much of his traffic and not original material.

Jay Lyden

Maybe I was reading a different article but I never thought Max was reducing the debate to MSN vs Blogs. In fact he is a committed (!) blogger, i think he's really only bemoaning the lack of real quality in the irish blogging community on a serious news level and maybe pointing out the potential blogging has as a journalistic platform that our local MSM (and bloggers) haven't grasped yet. Which is fair enough. As for it being the longest article ever, maybe Mr. McGuinness could reduce his article to a series of maybe 5 or 6 short paragraphs. And perhaps illustrate each with a cute image and publish them on a website. And maybe some links to his friends as well would be nice. Oh, hang on ...

squid

Do you actually read what you write? Or believe in any of it? If you had bothered to do any research, you would have discovered that many Irish blogs have large regular global readerships. The 'main man' of Irish blogging and organiser of the Irish Blog Awards, Damien Mulley has had over 700,000 visits since June 2005.

I'd be inclined to believe that those were unique visitors rather than hits. We get between 600 and 800 visitors a day, Mulley must get at least five times that per day, with nearly 1000 subscribers to his feeds compared to our 40.

squid

Take note, bloggers: “60 per cent of the content of the internet is pornography.” That’s called “research”; that’s what real journalists do. It’s normal practice for a responsible journalist like Mr. Waters to find at least two sources for a fact like this. “Now how seriously would we take a newspaper of which that was true?” That’s called a “rhetorical question” – one of the litany of stylistic devices which Mr. Waters can call upon after his years of experience as a salaried man of letters. “Oh I think this. No I think that.” Mr. Waters is perceptively pointing out that blogs typically consist of mere opinion, unsupported by any original reporting, whereas what Mr. Waters writes for the Irish Times is not bitter, incoherent, uninformed waffle; it is indeed The Truth. Be in no doubt Mr. Waters, we take you and your newspaper just as seriously as you do.

I will try to remember that the next time I see the Irish Times on the same news stand as nutz zoo playboyetc

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